There is no rage, or drama here. This is meant for discussion, and im rather looking forward to it. This is also not directed at anyone, moreso that i had to cite examples and i did use names. People are totally entiltled to opinions and i respect peoepl's rights to give such
I humbly ask that you all refrain from name calling, or rude commentary towrds this post - or each other. I'm not doing this to be spiteful or hateful, but rather to be direct. This is a microcosm of the posion present in our community, that has turned off so many good people - and took me most of the day to chillax and think clearly on how to respond to this. I discovered the first 2 points simply by using the advanced search function, checking posts, and using the keywords Malika and Turboman... This search only stimmed from research into the personality of the person who sent me the note, which is #3 - because i wanted to figure out how to address him suitably, or if i should even bother at all.
Most of you who know me know, i'm not a very vocal person and normally i do things entirely by note. As i stated in my journal however, I believe in meeting people where they're at - and since 1 and 2 were both put out... in public where people could see it, and 3 (which was a note) is essentially an offshoot of 2; I figured i'd deal with this one more time, out in the open for everyone to get their say in.
I don't mind if you disagree with me, and i dont mind (obviously) if you agree with me. All I want to do is sort out this stuff once and for all, prodcutively, so that it's contributing to the setting or i can flesh out anything else that needs to be done. If i catch any overt negativity, then i will block those comments, so keep it profession and productive. With all that said, here goes the sources of my grief first:
Quote: (this was not his line - to be fair)
And as for Kallisti... wow. I'm pretty damn sure from her profile that she actually does fulfill many of the criteria for a Mary Sue, but this is not the place to talk about that, I don't think.
(This, however is...)
Basically. Felarya has had ongoing issues with 'Sues over the years. Sometimes Karbo winds up liking them though, and they get in. I think Malika (or most of Turboman's characters) fall into that group as well. They really only exist to look sexy and engage in "epic" Dragonball Z-esque battles. Most even have multiple transformations that get progressively more powerful.
By Shady Knight:
you still gotta love Malika
I don't care about Malika. To me, she's a Vivian clone.
Shady-Knight said the following:
Lately I've been feeling like talking with other people in the community and I felt like talking with you. To be more precise, I felt like I should discuss certain things about Malika and Relina, cause I didn't make it secret that I didn't like either of them, but now times seem to be changing. I noticed that restarting stories seem to be the trend lately, especially with Ravana re-imagining his characters and how they got to where they are now, so I thought maybe you too could have been looking back on your humble beginnings and find problems that you once thought were amazing ideas at the time. In that sense, I feel bad that I wasn't giving my thoughts on what I disliked about Malika and Relina, so that's why I feel like chatting. I haven't been keeping up with your stories, especially now that there over 200 submission in your gallery, so I apologize if points I bring up are outdated, especially since Nick has been doing a lot of stuff with Malika.
turboman500 said the following:
what is it about the 2 of them you dont like a again?
Broadly speaking, I found Malika very one-note, she was sex appeal and nothing else, and I heard of a story where she did unsavory things to Jora, to put it as mildly as possible. But since Nick has been doing stuff with her, I don't think she's unsalvageable anymore, she has untapped potential, but it needs to deviate from sex appeal. I really can't make a big deal about predatory characters not being super deep and complex, because I can't write deep and complex stories with mine, I tried. I'm perfectly okay that she's meant to be gorgeous among nagas, that she's aware of it and makes the most of it, but at the same time, I think she needs to have other identifying personality trait. In a way, and that's a big generalization, she's Vivian if she wasn't a top class sorceress, nor if she was as lazy. But the thing is, Vivian has her hidden depths beyond being highly attractive, self-centered and having a strong sex drive, it's just that they're rarely explored upon. I think the same should apply to Malika, having hidden depths that set her apart, and the sex appeal could be toned down a bit. For example, sure she'll tease people and may speak to them casually (I like how she'd call even perfect strangers "sugar", "sweetheart", etc.), but I wouldn't see her "sleep" with perfect strangers, that would just be disturbing and hard to believe from both parties, especially since nagas are very dangerous to other species, even giants.
As for Relina, really the one thing that bugs me are the super modes. I just don't find it works for Felarya, and this probably will sound hypocritical, even though I don't mind Enemene's Aurora having a superpowered evil side, or as close to one without being technically evil. I think what really bugs me the most is that they have a name, I just can't take it seriously at all. I know she's a Crimson Maiden and they're known for being battle freaks at times, but I see it as being prone to entering a battle frenzy, basically a glorified adrenaline rush. I know you could make the argument with Randomdude's Kiki, but I recall that she got zapped magic crystals she was tampering with before we first saw her superpowered evil side, so I thought it was more an anomaly in her case rather than something endemic to members of her tribe. There's another issue that I can't really claim as true since I only saw it in Asuroth's story, and that she tends to challenge adventurers in a duel. Technically, it's not entirely the character's fault and more so portrayal of humanoids, so I'll save it for another time.
Now to be fair, it was stated that this go into skype, msn, or something else - but the way i figure... you really have to have balls to step to someone with this - and the previous 2 statements were done in open forums, so i may as well deal with this in the open.
Now - the good news is, that's all that i could find on the forums - and my inbox... that was said (ignoring the quips about my feelings on super forms and the like)
So, now onto the part where i do things in a civil manner...
On point number 1:
I don't even know how to respond to this... It's probably the most hurtful thing anyone has said about anything i've done since i joined the community back in 2007. It's hurtful, because for 1, i've always had a great deal of respect for the poster and his ideas... 2 it came out of left field in a discussion that was currently on necromancy... and 3 i've never been the most vocal in the community - or forums - but when people do hear from me, i'm usually trying to be positive or upifting in terms of their ideas or works.
Since i don't make a habit of tearing others down, you can imagine how it feels to see not just one of my oc's... but most all of them categorized in this manner. So i will take the suggestion of a close friend and be firm about this: Be firm.
Noxcia, does not fit into that category at all. Shes also very underused (something i planned to fix) by me, but she's one of my favorite characters.
Malika exists for a muriad of reasons... I will get into that with the next 2 points though, because i do not want to repeat myself (makes for an even MORE boring read)
Relina does have grandiose fights it's true, but i try to pay some homage to inspirations whenever i write, so that's to be expected.. simply writing off her form(s) in that manner does a great disservice to the characters though, because it completely overlooks all of the developement put in.
For someone who wants to do good for the setting (i've read many parts where the community doesnt matter anymore) it's not very helpful or positive to put down someone's idea's like that publicly - especially without talking to them about it first? How's that going to make anyone want to contribute and dream up new ideas to enhance the setting?
I'll say it again, this really cut me deep and hurt my feelings
2. The whole "Malika is a Vivian clone" routine.... That's about as cliche of an argument as you can make. Again, i'll wait till point 3 to address why that's totally off base.
When i first came up with her concept, i'd spent a good week extra, reading people's works ... checking out pictures, and anything else i could do. The name is dervied from the very FIRST girl i ever had a crush on - even her skin color has to do with that. I then spent a good deal of time looking up all the nagas that were cannon and even some non cannon, before if came up with a list of her traits. I saw an anacondas poster.... with the skull or "illusion" of a skull, then immediately decided on her colrs, parttern and that her human half would reflect her lower half...vice versa... w/e. Then I thought up relina, using the same methods... I'd always thought the name was cool, so thats how she was named... then i put the two together as i figured the clash of personality would make for a great duo.
I must say i'm rather pleased with the result....
3. This is where shit gets real...
a. Addressing Malika & Vivian is very simple... Saying one is the clone of the other is like comparing Jessica Rabbit to Daisy Duke... Any writer, artist, or critic worth his salt should be able to pick up immediately on the set of differences that comparison alone would present.
To take it a step further, i do find Vivian to be incredibly sexy as a character (in writing and art), she's actually my favorite character! That being said, Vivan reminds me of a worldly, sophisticated woman, who overflows with confidence, wisdom, grace, poise, and that comes through in her sexuality. Considering her creator, and where he lives - that sounds exactly right for what passes as sexy (and trust me it is). Compare that to Malika's creator, and where I live. Malika is a guys gal, the type of girl you could play video games with, play in the mud with, get to work o your car for you - and she'd enjoy getting dirty. She's full of confidence, there couldn't be less poise, and quite frankly she's just not a complicated individual... It;s part of why they have such a wonderful dynamic together: Vivian is that woman that gave you wet dreams when you were younger, and the woman you wish every gf you have is until you get married - maybe that's your Vivian. Malika is that wild country girl you grew up with that pulls you into the backseat of your car when you're on a long cruise, and she's the gal that'll always be watin on ya when you.
b. Malika does have a great deal of depth to her - something that has truly fleshed out over the years. Do you honestly believe that anyone would bother using her in their art, or story telling if she was just a flat character with nothing to offer? Why not just use Vivian instead? or Crisis? Why would she even be listed if she were an exact copy or even close to it of one of the most famous Nagas in the Canon. Instead you could just refer to any writing, or art depicting Vivian using her clone technique and there ya go... would save me alot of butchering the english launguage (which, i'd like to commend those who write with Malika at undertaing the literary challenge of writing her dialogue properly - i dont envy you) Malika's past as it pertains to canon (what other characters know) Is one of lonlines, suffering, pain... all feelings that she hides from her friends - even Relina.
c. Malika is in a constant state of "Heat" if you will, due to the experiments that made her what she is. As a result, she will go at it with anyone she finds interesting enough to do so with. It's not an emotional thing for her at this point... it eventually will be, and this will get somewhat better, but as things are now - whether it's one of her giantess friends, a beautiful naga sorceress, a newcomer naga, a fiesty (and very badass) mantoid, a thoughtful man walking outside of safe harbor, or even a giant she's about to eat up... if she likes them, she's going to probably make passes at them until she gets what she wants - or a definitive no...
d. Last note on her sexuality - it's one of her "hooks" say what you want, every single character in felarya has a "hook" that attracts you to the character first, then prompts you to look deeper into that character. This ranges widely from Melany's amazing appearance contrasted to other fairies, Garnet's way of talking, Jade's oath, Crisis' kindness, vivian... well just existing lol, Ciel's honor and dutifulness, Milly's relation's to her prey, Gayla's amazing coloration and interest in knowledge, Katrika's adorableness, Anna's badassness, Isham's being the chuck norris of Felarya
, Jora's clumsiness, Aurora's strength, Fiona's kindness to strangers, Elli's fiery red hear and playfulness, umbrella man's mystique, so on so forth... you get the idea - and that will vary from deviant to deviant. All of these characters had something out there that drew you to them, before you looked deeper into them! That's no different for any of mine - from Natalie, all the way to Noxcia.
a. FIRST of all, Relina is NOT a Crimson Maiden - she is a Valka Fae. There is a pretty big list of differences, and it does matter.
b. About supermodes: The fact that you admit hypocracy in defending one, while at the same down tearing down mine... really and truthfully means that i should have just ignored all of this in the first place...
c. The Valka fae who have Tyrannical Frenzies and there are only 8 out ofthe whole set of clans around the spire, are the only ones with names for them - because that form is a completely different persona. I plan on writing it out more and really delving into it, but it is another personality, ALMOST like another being that inhabits their bodies. Only The few Valka that are born with - or develope this feature will end up with frenzies beyond the reqular black eyes and more power.
It should also be noted that a valka fae's frenzy is rarely ever used, save for in the case of fighting tought opponents, like tonorions or very skilled opponents. They tyrannical frenzy eve less so. Natalie for example, has hers locked via a charm that is wrapped around her antlers.
d. as far as duels are concerned, if you're about to battle a Valka Fae - then that means she's already caught you and she could have easilly just eaten you like most normal fairies do. Fairies like to play games with their prey... fairies like Melany tend to use traps... Valka fae prefer to be sporting and duel their prey... you win and you go free - if you lose you go to the belly, simple as that.
e. Where Relina herself is concerned, the most constructive criticism i'd ever gotten is from Karbo himself in regards to how edgy she was - and he was right. So i've been trying to work on that, so that she'd be a much more likable character.
There, all the negative points addressed. If you disagree or agree, then we can have a civil and open debate/discussion.
Special thanks to the people who initially gave me some advice, a context to consider things in. You'll find that i did take everyone's advice - and then executed it in the southern way
ps-there is no spell checking..because this was going to be a jouranl entry... but i figured this would get the point across better as a deviation...