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There is no rage, or drama here. This is meant for discussion, and im rather looking forward to it. This is also not directed at anyone, moreso that i had to cite examples and i did use names. People are totally entiltled to opinions and i respect peoepl's rights to give such :)




I humbly ask that you all refrain from name calling, or rude commentary towrds this post - or each other. I'm not doing this to be spiteful or hateful, but rather to be direct. This is a microcosm of the posion present in our community, that has turned off so many good people - and took me most of the day to chillax and think clearly on how to respond to this. I discovered the first 2 points simply by using the advanced search function, checking posts, and using the keywords Malika and Turboman... This search only stimmed from research into the personality of the person who sent me the note, which is #3 - because i wanted to figure out how to address him suitably, or if i should even bother at all.

Most of you who know me know, i'm not a very vocal person and normally i do things entirely by note. As i stated in my journal however, I believe in meeting people where they're at - and since 1 and 2 were both put out... in public where people could see it, and 3 (which was a note) is essentially an offshoot of 2; I figured i'd deal with this one more time, out in the open for everyone to get their say in.

I don't mind if you disagree with me, and i dont mind (obviously) if you agree with me. All I want to do is sort out this stuff once and for all, prodcutively, so that it's contributing to the setting or i can flesh out anything else that needs to be done. If i catch any overt negativity, then i will block those comments, so keep it profession and productive. With all that said, here goes the sources of my grief first:

By rcs619:

Quote: (this was not his line - to be fair)
And as for Kallisti... wow. I'm pretty damn sure from her profile that she actually does fulfill many of the criteria for a Mary Sue, but this is not the place to talk about that, I don't think.

(This, however is...)
Basically. Felarya has had ongoing issues with 'Sues over the years. Sometimes Karbo winds up liking them though, and they get in. I think Malika (or most of Turboman's characters) fall into that group as well. They really only exist to look sexy and engage in "epic" Dragonball Z-esque battles. Most even have multiple transformations that get progressively more powerful.
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2.
By Shady Knight:
alliance wrote:
you still gotta love Malika
I don't care about Malika. To me, she's a Vivian clone.

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3.
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Shady-Knight said the following:

Lately I've been feeling like talking with other people in the community and I felt like talking with you. To be more precise, I felt like I should discuss certain things about Malika and Relina, cause I didn't make it secret that I didn't like either of them, but now times seem to be changing. I noticed that restarting stories seem to be the trend lately, especially with Ravana re-imagining his characters and how they got to where they are now, so I thought maybe you too could have been looking back on your humble beginnings and find problems that you once thought were amazing ideas at the time. In that sense, I feel bad that I wasn't giving my thoughts on what I disliked about Malika and Relina, so that's why I feel like chatting. I haven't been keeping up with your stories, especially now that there over 200 submission in your gallery, so I apologize if points I bring up are outdated, especially since Nick has been doing a lot of stuff with Malika.

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turboman500 said the following:

what is it about the 2 of them you dont like a again?
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Broadly speaking, I found Malika very one-note, she was sex appeal and nothing else, and I heard of a story where she did unsavory things to Jora, to put it as mildly as possible. But since Nick has been doing stuff with her, I don't think she's unsalvageable anymore, she has untapped potential, but it needs to deviate from sex appeal. I really can't make a big deal about predatory characters not being super deep and complex, because I can't write deep and complex stories with mine, I tried. I'm perfectly okay that she's meant to be gorgeous among nagas, that she's aware of it and makes the most of it, but at the same time, I think she needs to have other identifying personality trait. In a way, and that's a big generalization, she's Vivian if she wasn't a top class sorceress, nor if she was as lazy. But the thing is, Vivian has her hidden depths beyond being highly attractive, self-centered and having a strong sex drive, it's just that they're rarely explored upon. I think the same should apply to Malika, having hidden depths that set her apart, and the sex appeal could be toned down a bit. For example, sure she'll tease people and may speak to them casually (I like how she'd call even perfect strangers "sugar", "sweetheart", etc.), but I wouldn't see her "sleep" with perfect strangers, that would just be disturbing and hard to believe from both parties, especially since nagas are very dangerous to other species, even giants.

As for Relina, really the one thing that bugs me are the super modes. I just don't find it works for Felarya, and this probably will sound hypocritical, even though I don't mind Enemene's Aurora having a superpowered evil side, or as close to one without being technically evil. I think what really bugs me the most is that they have a name, I just can't take it seriously at all. I know she's a Crimson Maiden and they're known for being battle freaks at times, but I see it as being prone to entering a battle frenzy, basically a glorified adrenaline rush. I know you could make the argument with Randomdude's Kiki, but I recall that she got zapped magic crystals she was tampering with before we first saw her superpowered evil side, so I thought it was more an anomaly in her case rather than something endemic to members of her tribe. There's another issue that I can't really claim as true since I only saw it in Asuroth's story, and that she tends to challenge adventurers in a duel. Technically, it's not entirely the character's fault and more so portrayal of humanoids, so I'll save it for another time.

Now to be fair, it was stated that this go into skype, msn, or something else - but the way i figure... you really have to have balls to step to someone with this - and the previous 2 statements were done in open forums, so i may as well deal with this in the open.

Now - the good news is, that's all that i could find on the forums - and my inbox... that was said (ignoring the quips about my feelings on super forms and the like)

So, now onto the part where i do things in a civil manner...
On point number 1:

I don't even know how to respond to this... It's probably the most hurtful thing anyone has said about anything i've done since i joined the community back in 2007. It's hurtful, because for 1, i've always had a great deal of respect for the poster and his ideas... 2 it came out of left field in a discussion that was currently on necromancy... and 3 i've never been the most vocal in the community - or forums - but when people do hear from me, i'm usually trying to be positive or upifting in terms of their ideas or works.

Since i don't make a habit of tearing others down, you can imagine how it feels to see not just one of my oc's... but most  all of them categorized in this manner. So i will take the suggestion of a close friend and be firm about this: Be firm.

Noxcia, does not fit into that category at all. Shes also very underused (something i planned to fix) by me, but she's one of my favorite characters.

Malika exists for a muriad of reasons... I will get into that with the next 2 points though, because i do not want to repeat myself (makes for an even MORE boring read)

Relina does have grandiose fights it's true, but i try to pay some homage to inspirations whenever i write, so that's to be expected.. simply writing off her form(s) in that manner does a great disservice to the characters though, because it completely overlooks all of the developement put in.

For someone who wants to do good for the setting (i've read many parts where the community doesnt matter anymore) it's not very helpful or positive to put down someone's idea's like that publicly - especially without talking to them about it first? How's that going to make anyone want to contribute and dream up new ideas to enhance the setting?

I'll say it again, this really cut me deep and hurt my feelings

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2. The whole "Malika is a Vivian clone" routine.... That's about as cliche of an argument as you can make. Again, i'll wait till point 3 to address why that's totally off base.

When i first came up with her concept, i'd spent a good week extra, reading people's works ... checking out pictures, and anything else i could do. The name is dervied from the very FIRST girl i ever had a crush on - even her skin color has to do with that. I then spent a good deal of time looking up all the nagas that were cannon and even some non cannon, before if came up with a list of her traits. I saw an anacondas poster.... with the skull or "illusion" of a skull, then immediately decided on her colrs, parttern and that her human half would reflect her lower half...vice versa... w/e. Then I thought up relina, using the same methods... I'd always thought the name was cool, so thats how she was named... then i put the two together as i figured the clash of personality would make for a great duo.

I must say i'm rather pleased with the result....

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3. This is where shit gets real...
On Malika:
a. Addressing Malika & Vivian is very simple... Saying one is the clone of the other is like comparing Jessica Rabbit to Daisy Duke... Any writer, artist, or critic worth his salt should be able to pick up immediately on the set of differences that comparison alone would present.

To take it a step further, i do find Vivian to be incredibly sexy as a character (in writing and art), she's actually my favorite character! That being said, Vivan reminds me of a worldly, sophisticated woman, who overflows with confidence, wisdom, grace, poise, and that comes through in her sexuality. Considering her creator, and where he lives - that sounds exactly right for what passes as sexy (and trust me it is). Compare that to Malika's creator, and where I live. Malika is a guys gal, the type of girl you could play video games with, play in the mud with, get to work o your car for you - and she'd enjoy getting dirty. She's full of confidence, there couldn't be less poise, and quite frankly she's just not a complicated individual... It;s part of why they have such a wonderful dynamic together: Vivian is that woman that gave you wet dreams  when you were younger, and the woman you wish every gf you have is until you get married - maybe that's your Vivian. Malika is that wild country girl you grew up with that pulls you into the backseat of your car when you're on a long cruise, and she's the gal that'll always be watin on ya when you.

b. Malika does have a great deal of depth to her - something that has truly fleshed out over the years. Do you honestly believe that anyone would bother using her in their art, or story telling if she was just a flat character with nothing to offer? Why not just use Vivian instead? or Crisis? Why would she even be listed if she were an exact copy or even close to it of one of the most famous Nagas in the Canon. Instead you could just refer to any writing, or art depicting Vivian using her clone technique and there ya go... would save me alot of butchering the english launguage (which, i'd like to commend those who write with Malika at undertaing the literary challenge of writing her dialogue properly - i dont envy you) Malika's past as it pertains to canon (what other characters know) Is one of lonlines, suffering, pain... all feelings that she  hides from her friends - even Relina.

c. Malika is in a constant state of "Heat" if you will, due to the experiments that made her what she is. As a result, she will go at it with anyone she finds interesting enough to do so with. It's not an emotional thing for her at this point... it eventually will be, and this will get somewhat better, but as things are now - whether it's one of her giantess friends, a beautiful naga sorceress,  a newcomer naga, a fiesty (and very badass) mantoid, a thoughtful man walking outside of safe harbor, or even a giant she's about to eat up... if she likes them, she's going to probably make passes at them until she gets what she wants - or a definitive no...

d. Last note on her sexuality - it's one of her "hooks" say what you want, every single character in felarya has a "hook" that attracts you to the character first, then prompts you to look deeper into that character. This ranges widely from Melany's amazing appearance contrasted to other fairies, Garnet's way of talking, Jade's oath, Crisis' kindness, vivian... well just existing lol, Ciel's honor and dutifulness, Milly's relation's to her prey, Gayla's amazing coloration and interest in knowledge, Katrika's adorableness, Anna's badassness, Isham's being the chuck norris of Felarya :P, Jora's clumsiness, Aurora's strength, Fiona's kindness to strangers, Elli's fiery red hear and playfulness, umbrella man's mystique, so on so forth... you get the idea - and that will vary from deviant to deviant. All of these characters had something out there that drew you to them, before you looked deeper into them! That's no different for any of mine - from Natalie, all the way to Noxcia.

On Relina

a. FIRST of all, Relina is NOT a Crimson Maiden - she is a Valka Fae. There is a pretty big list of differences, and it does matter.

b. About supermodes: The fact that you admit hypocracy in defending one, while at the same down tearing down mine... really and truthfully means that i should have just ignored all of this in the first place...

c. The Valka fae who have Tyrannical Frenzies and there are only  8 out ofthe whole set of clans around the spire, are the only ones with names for them - because that form is a completely different persona. I plan on writing it out more and really delving into it, but it is another personality, ALMOST like another being that inhabits their bodies. Only The few Valka that are born with - or develope this feature will end up with frenzies beyond the reqular black eyes and more power.

It should also be noted that a valka fae's frenzy is rarely ever used, save for in the case of fighting tought opponents, like tonorions or very skilled opponents. They tyrannical frenzy eve less so. Natalie for example, has hers locked via a charm that is wrapped around her antlers.

d. as far as duels are concerned, if you're about to battle a Valka Fae - then that means she's already caught you and she could have easilly just eaten you like most normal fairies do. Fairies like to play games with their prey... fairies like Melany tend to use traps... Valka fae prefer to be sporting and duel their prey... you win and you go free - if you lose you go to the belly, simple as that.

e. Where Relina herself is concerned, the most constructive criticism i'd ever gotten is from Karbo himself in regards to how edgy she was - and he was right. So i've been trying to work on that, so that she'd be a much more likable character.

There, all the negative points addressed. If you disagree or agree, then we can have a civil and open debate/discussion.

Special thanks to the people who initially gave me some advice, a context to consider things in. You'll find that i did take everyone's advice  - and then executed it in the southern way :)

ps-there is no spell checking..because this was going to be a jouranl entry... but i figured this would get the point across better as a deviation...
This is exactly what it sounds like, and is the most polite way i can think of to air my grievances - and why i felt kinda down yesterday. I really feel like we should be more productive with what we say to each other about ideas and the like. If people want things brought to the community then you've got to show that it's not just going to be a rage grinder for anything that 1 or 2 highly vocal people dont agree with. What message does that send to newbies? Heck what message does it send to veterans? I only posted what i found that was directed at me - or just sent to me, because it's not my place to dredge up, or jump on some bandwagon... but i saw several instances of Compromise meaning someone change core concepts of their ideas, or the whole thing was unacceptable. Tell me, how is all or nothing AGAINST the person with the concept a compromise? It's not... lets cut that sort of thing out eh?

This has the potential to be a VERY vibrant community. I saw some amazing discussions and theories in some of the threads, some very amazing ideas. With a world/universe like this, there's room to be really creative - whether it become canon or not, it shouldn't matter in the least.

Ok, enough sappy stuff. Have a good day all

I mentioned (via hint or directly) characters that belong to Karbo, and several others... you know who you are, and you know you get mad respect from me :)
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner May 7, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
After reading three of your stories, which only two of them really delved into Malika's character, and casually browsing through your gallery, I decided to come back to this thread for some update on my thoughts about her character. I originally intended to do it in a note, but since we had a perfectly good deviation for that very purpose, I figured why not. After some thinking using my super duper powers of overthinking, I believe I found what exactly distinguishes Malika from Vivian when it comes to their apparent promiscuity. Unfortunately, browsing through your gallery also made me realize the root of my old thoughts on Malika being a Vivian clone, and to be honest, I think that notion is still valid, but only to a small extent. Let me explain.

From what I've gathered from your previous posts in this deviation, Vivian and Malika are both very attractive women who routinely use seduction both as a mean of catching preys and to people they don't normally consider as food, but you made the distinction that you viewed Vivian as high-class French woman, because Karbo lives in the land of baguettes and berets, while you made Malika more of a country gal. After some thoughts, I can now see subtle hints on how they both use seduction for completely different reasons, and also how they use it. In Vivian's case, it highlights her laziness. She is an extraordinarily powerful sorceress and insanely smart as well. If she wanted to, she could make for an absolutely terrifying huntress. But instead, she simply decides to cast a charm on her preys, because searching for food would be too much of a bother for her. I think it's also safe to assume that she also uses to make fruits grow whenever those run out around her place. Her use of charms also highlights her self-centered nature. She could use other spells to incapacitate preys, but why do that when she can make them deliberately come to her instead, and even get some compliments out of it? Compared to Vivian, Malika's use of seduction seems to stem from a desire to have fun. She talks to her prey, engage in some trivial chatter while teasing them, sometimes even playing dumb or act like she's more coy than she really is, essentially lull her prey in a false sense of security before snatching it. It's also been hinted fairly well in Fishing - The Malika Way. If you think about it, she could have just grabbed the boat and raised it high about the water, then feasted on the four schmucks, but that wouldn't be fun to her. Instead, she went for a more roundabout way because she gets more enjoyment out of it. Also, you mentioned in the deviation bringing up random points about her that if you play "hard to get", then she wants you more. This hints that she loves the challenge, which could explain why she doesn't usually go for a direct approach when hunting. Essentially, if it's requiring her more effort to get what she wants, then it's more satisfying for her when she does get it. This definitely would not apply to Vivian, as she's used to getting things the easy.

When it comes to seducing someone they don't see as food, I think it boils down to this. Vivian is essentially flaunting her beauty and she wants to make an impression that will not leave until the day the person dies. The way I see it, she teases people to get a reaction out of them, cause I guess it amuses her, and maybe sometimes goes a bit further just to get an even bigger reaction. In the case of Malika, it just seems to be her way of showing that she likes someone, and when the object of said affection plays "hard to get", it either seems to be like a game up to a point, or a subconscious fear of rejection. After all, being raised like a lab rat has to take a toll on a person's mind. In both cases, I don't think either are really promiscuous, and when I think about it, the only person that's listed in the wiki with whom she regularly makes out with is Melany, and if you add Malika, it's consensual in both cases. Which brings me to my point on how I think the notion that Malika is a clone of Vivian is somewhat valid and why.

Glancing at your gallery, I couldn't help but notice quite a few sexual jokes about Malika, like Q & T&A, an implied dildo joke in the baseball picture, which by the way I think Malika looks great with a ponytail, though that could just be me cause I have a thing for ponytails, and that picture of Vivian and Malika with oversized boobs just seducing a group of humans. To be straight to the point, the idea of one being a clone of the other is because they're both subjects to the same jokes. It's okay once in a while to poke fun at it, but the problem is, as it happened to poor Vivi, it gets overused very fast and they no longer warrant a cheap laugh. Worse yet, as mentioned in my previous comment, it can paint someone's perception of another character. It's a little like how very vocal fans in a certain fandom can be painted as a bunch of man children because they never shut the fuck up about whatever just happened in said series and feels compelled to tell everyone about it, whether they're obviously annoyed or not. I know that they're a minority, often a very small one, but the sad truth is that it's much easier to recognize these kind of obnoxious fans than it is to recognize more civil ones. In the case of Vivian and Malika, when the sex jokes about become almost omnipresent, it's just easy to think that it's their entire character because that's all that's ever talked about them, and as a result, those little subtexts I mentioned two paragraphs earlier just kind of blend together and become almost impossible to spot. I think the picture with the two of them having an oversized chest and nearly shoving it in the face of humans is the perfect metaphor for this train of thought. Highly sexualized women with enormous breasts just casually flaunting their assets in the face of people, and what really clinches the whole "clone" deal is the fact that they are drawn almost completely identically, aside from their color scheme and tail pattern. I know the truth is that they both have a distinct dichotomy hinted in your work, but that picture I believe is the perfect representation of what the popular image of Malika and Vivian is.

So what am I going for with all of this? I saw evidence that Malika has a different personality than Vivian, both in Nick's comics and your work, and can't really see the two as clones. But, her popular image continues to precede the more fleshed out and distinct character she truly is. The obvious solution to that would be to tell you to cut down on the sexual jokes, but in all honesty, your efforts alone will only get the stigma away so much. But really, it's not Malika's or your fault alone; people in the community also need to start seeing Vivian beyond just an incredibly sexy woman. It will most definitely take time and effort from everyone before this stigma becomes less prominent, but it's probably doable. The way I see it, Vivian is an incredibly intelligent and wise sorceress who sees her immense powers and beauty as a mean to take the easy way out of her problems and have people admire her, and Malika is a perky and fun-loving country gal who relishes the challenges the world throws at her and sees her beauty as a possible mean to get the most enjoyment out of certain situation. They have their similarities, but when it comes down to it, they are fundamentally very different.

This has been my latest ramble.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner May 15, 2013
I've been reading over this, several times in fact. I don't ignore what I perceive to be constructive criticism. In fact between this, the note I got awhile back - and just some thinking I've been doing, I'm planning to go back and make some changes to the origin story, some changes to the valka fae, abit more clarification about Relina as a valka fae, and a re- organization of stories so that earlier works don't confuse people about my current cannon.

Also redoing one of the valka clans, having its old chieftain be dead and the other working as a guide through felarya. Trying to get them abit more palatable than they are, and perhaps more so than regular fairies. I tried to look at why most people hate fairies and work around that.
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner May 15, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
The thing with fairies, the way I perceive it, is the notion that their ability to shrink people and alter their own size is, for a lack of a better term, broken. Looking past the mention that if you're too big to begin with, you're immune, it still leave humans pretty defenseless unless they have very high magic resistance, which would imply being a high-class mage or something.

The way I play with it personally is that shrinking and enlarging an object is like a tool to them and isn't practical when deal with a group of armed humans. I go with the notion that the process, while fast, isn't instantaneous and leaves the one being shrunk able to warn the others midway through, which makes it all the more difficult for the fairy to go and claim its prize.

That's one of the reasons I like Lucilya. Since that ability is pretty much her entire schtick, you'd think she'd be especially broken with it. In reality, French-Snack brought subtle limitations, such as apparently needing to be close to her prey and being really effective against only one target, and she uses her ability to alter her own size as a tool for stealth. So really, Lucilya isn't fearsome because she's a fairy, she's fearsome because she uses her natural abilities to great effect. She could be any predatory race and she'd be just as dangerous if her skills at stealth were left intact, and that's a mark of a well-crafted character: her abilities aren't what defines her, how she uses her abilities define her.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner May 15, 2013
This is one i both agree and disagree with you on. By the standard being used, every single predator is broken, both real and fantasy where it pertains to humans.

1. Using a real animal, such as a great white shark, or crocodile, once you venture into their habitat you are at a complete disadvantage - armed or not. More times than not, you'd be dead or mortally wounded before you even knew what hit you. Of course adding numbers completely changes that - but adding human sentience (if that's spelled wrong I apologize) and once again that completely changes.

2. I tend to agree with you about spell limitations for average fae, such as the time it takes to shrink, how often in a day it could be used in conjunction with other similar powers (which we know would take a tremendous amount of power) poor illustrating and over use of these mechanics have most likely caused negative perception.

3. I consider having civilized humans/ offworlders with little or no gear/training surviving in the jungle for excessive periods of time far more broken than any fairy. This is something I see a lot of! Just to put in perspective my view on things.

Tldr-people consider anything higher than them on the food chain broken, for whatever adaptation that puts them there. I also like lucilya Asa character! If anything the one hang up I have with the average fae, is the slight condescension towards humans and nekos, tho I guess that could be said for several other preds as well.
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner May 15, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
When I meant broken, I meant that it's how people view it compared to other giants. Honestly, I see it as no different from a dridder catching someone in a web, or a slug girl leaving a bit trail of slime and using something to bait people into it, it's really their method of catching preys and it just happens to have a lot of other potential uses, so I have no problem about it. People who complain about it are usually those who are quick to cast judgement before properly analyzing the problem at hand.

Since you brought up humans who aren't trained survivalists, yet survived for a while in the jungle, you may not exactly like my first chapters. I don't like spoiling it, but in it there are two humans who got lost in the jungle and traversed through it over a very long time. However, I made sure to show that they were getting more and more injured as time passed, among other things, and by the end of it they were ripe for a trip to the ER. I won't say any more than that, cause I really want you to enjoy the story for what it is.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner May 15, 2013
Hence you and I agree lol

Actually I have been trying to catch up, and while that was initially my first thought-as you stated, bad things happened, and often enough to where it was believable that they went through enough. I venture to say that encountering anything much bigger would have been overkill
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:iconkarbo:
Karbo Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
Hehe great description of Malika and Vivian :D I found your take on Vivian being that Confident, sophisticated french woman interesting ^^ It's- Perhaps unconsciously - the type of personality I had in mind when I started to develop her ( when she was that random, nameless naga once, blushing naughtily as she performed her hypno-boob tactic XD )
But the most important thing in that is that ,indeed, Malika and Vivian are definitely two very different characters. If someone say Malika is just a clone, then they probably have seen and read very little of her in the first place ^^ ;
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
I attribute their differences primarily to their sexuality after all. I think that's what shapes a lot of their behaviors which really set them apart. From something as complicated as the manner in which they seduce, down to the way they hunt.

I think another draw to Vivian (at least for me) is that she is a whole different breed of sexy than I'm used to. That's not to say that we don't have classy women where I live, I just find Vivian more sophisticated. I also think that, like you, I subconsciously made Malika what's sexy to me ( course since nagas don't have butts I couldn't give her an apple/onion ghetto booty lol, so she got it upstairs instead) a good ol down to earth country gal that's all women when it counts.

I think that's why I love it when the two are together in any scene - because of their differences, they have one of the most entertaining dynamics as a duo!
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:iconprinnydood-abides:
PrinnyDood-Abides Featured By Owner Mar 2, 2013
You know, I'm beginning to think maybe we should promote you to Felarya's official voice of reason, or something.

Really, one of the first things I thought about Malika was 'Dang, a sexy, horny naga who's still somehow almost nothing like Vivian! Props to this dude.'

But yeah, despite a whole lot of noise about how DA lacks in constructive criticism (which there is some truth to, to be fair), I've still gotten far more helpful advice here than the forum. I mean sure, I've seen plenty of condescending, offhanded putdowns there, with little-to-no followup, explanation, or advice, but I'm really pretty sure that's not quite the same thing. :XD:

Once again props to you for taking the high road and trying to resolve these issue in a respectful and honest way. I'm really bad at that sort of thing, honestly: I pretty much avoid conflict, because I have almost nothing in between 'all smiles mode' and 'acidic, snarky jerk mode' ^^;
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
I'd be a terrible voice of reason lol - too country!

I really did try to make Malika a whole 'nother breed of sexy without copying Vivian's brilliance. With her recent developments in the manga, they are even further apart! Vivian's past is full of mystery while malika's is one of sorrow and darkness....

Condescension just pisses me off, especially condescension masked by faux morality... There's no place for it in the arena of ideas...

I should probably do a follow up , I think more people thought I was trying to be an ass! I tried to use as no hostile language as I could so that I could have a good forum, but that didn't seem to come off :(.

Least you stop at snarky-for me being angry means go to war
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:iconbrentogara:
BrentOGara Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Country gals rule... and Malika's the biggest country gal I know of :D Aside from both being good-looking, horny female nagas, I'm not really sure what Malika and Vivian actually have in common. I mean, almost all extant nagas are both female and good-looking... so really, 'being horny pretty much all the time' is their only real commonality.

I don't know much about your other characters mentioned, so I can't respond with any specificity, but just knowing a tiny bit about Human Nature, and a good chunk about Felarya... a character who survives more than a single day in Felarya is either an absolute badass or really big... and if that character is even remotely popular... then someone's going to crawl out of the woodwork with the cry of "Mary Sue" sounding from their lips... it's like a rule. ;)

... my brain just exploded... I had this sudden vision of Malika cosplaying as AppleJack from MLP:FiM... y'know, because they are the two most country gal's I know of. I might have to try drawing this. :P ...I'll have to use ManicPaint's human version of AJ though... 'cause she's the only AJ that's even half as sexy as Malika...
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2013
That's one thing i'd envisioned when i came up with Malika. I looked around the entire setting, and as you said - all nagas (really every female pred from the waist up in most cases) is hot. So I went with something that diffreniated her from the reast - Makin' her a good ol' country gal!

When ever i think of Vivian, I think of sophisticated sexy. In both her physical actions - and her sexuality in general. That of course makes sense if you think about where her creator is from! I mean if i'm not mistaken that's where lingirie comes from... Thank you France... you don't have to ever do anything else, that alone was enough.

Malika on the otherhand is that good ol raunchy sexy. it's a whole different type of ballgame, and it's what alot of us love here in the states! I also think that's what gives the two such a wonderful dynamic when they're together.

I thought applejack was a cereal till i saw that picture lol! A cosplay would be awesome! :)
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:iconbrentogara:
BrentOGara Featured By Owner Mar 2, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It's ok to be hot... but you really need something more than that, and "country gal" is pretty darn sweet in my book! :D I read a story once that said you could tell how important a character was by how many adjectives were used to describe them, and the more unique characters got to use adjectives that no one else had... by that measure, Malika's pretty darn important (at least in your works) and also quite unique.

Vivian is totally sophisticated... she's probably the most cosmopolitan giant predator in all of Felarya... IMHO, of course. Ah France... it's amazing to me how much they get right... and how much they get wrong! ;)

We had Karaoke in the Saloon I work at (I'm the cook!) last night, and the owner and two of the waitresses sang "Country Girls"... which is all about how much we 'Mericans love our raunchy sexy uncouth country gals... I had to laugh when they sang that "we don't need a fancy bra, we don't wear bras!" That's totally the vibe I get from Malika.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
Country girls rule! Simple as that- and Malika is me exception. And with that song, I think really describes it!
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:iconbrentogara:
BrentOGara Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yes they do! :D Malika is beautiful and sexy and cool... you are pretty cool too, but not sexy or beautiful :P
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013
Better NOT be lol
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:iconbrentogara:
BrentOGara Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
There are so few men who can really pull off "Sexy and Beautiful"... I think David Bowie really doesn't have much competition there... ;p
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:iconbulletbader:
BulletBader Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2013
Amen bro, amen. I feel bad that you've been treated like this, especially since you're a very talented story teller and character creator! Just keep on keeping on and anyone who gives you crap, just ignore it. That's what I do when people rub me the wrong way.

By the way, all your characters are simply amazing, rich and beautifully created. Can't wait to see what you have in store for them (again, thank you for letting me use Malika in my story) and I hope to see more in the future!
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2013
To be honest, I take is as an honor when people ask me to borrow my characters. In Malika's case especially because of the language butchering it takes to write dialogue with her. It's also a silent "hey, i like your idea, and i think it'd be cool to associate it with mine."

Thanks for the positive words though, and If you have any suggestions or the like - dont be afraid to approach me :)
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Sorry for having misread your note. I'm gonna open by saying that I admit Past Me was very immature, and I still am to a lesser extent. I was colored by bare representation like fanart where Malika is usually represented the same way Vivian usually is, so back then, when I was constantly angered by the fact that I was, and still am, such an unknown, I just called her a Vivian Clone. Looking back, that was just me searching for a scape goat or basing myself off of simple fanart, and as someone who frequents dA and see a lot of bottom-of-the-barrel fanart, I should have known better. The same applies to Relina, more or less, I don't remember much from her, I think all I remember was reading Ultra Relina somewhere and just lost it, again for no good reason.

But anyway, for the point concerning the characters, starting with Relina. Since you brought up the hypocrisy nod, I must admit, it was me making broad generalization. Really, my biggest problem is that when I think of "Ultra character name", I usually think of power levels that can leave a half-mile wide crater on the ground with a fairly standard attack. Chances are even in that form she's not like that, but that's what I'm "programmed" to assume with that general convention, and when I think of Felarya, I don't see that kind of thing working out for the most part.

Really, the names for her alternate forms are what bothers me. Naming the phenomenon, I don't mind, it's a good shortcut to describing a probable phenomenon without having to describe it all in detail every time it happens, it's just the character taking a different name every time she transforms that I find difficult to believe, even if it's supposed to alter her personality. Is it petty? Yeah, it probably is.

The thing with her race, most of the time I see her, she uses fire, and the calling card of Crimson Maidens is fire magic, so I just assumed she was a Crimson Maiden. I had no idea she was an outsider until Asuroth told me. In the case of grandiose fights, I admit I love grand, flashy battles, and I do sometimes imagine my characters pull stunts like those. However, when you write prose, you come severely handicapped when it comes to writing epic showdowns, because text alone can't convey the same experience as if you were actually watching it. It's much faster to process images than written words, and when it's slowed down due to the constraints of the medium, it won't left you hanging on the edge of your seat as you would if you were watching it on television or reading it in a comic book. That's why I think it's better if it's somewhat low-key in comparison to other examples. Does that mean the inherent concept of Relina taking on a different appearances, which makes her faster and stronger, which may or may not have a cost? Well, when I think about it, there's really nothing wrong with it and, again, that was Past Me jumping the gun, but I think it needs to be adapted to fit within the style of writing with words alone.

As I said before, Relina challenging a human in a duel isn't the actual problem, it's moreso how humans should react. The way I picture Felarya, if a human was to leave the safety of its hometown, for a lack of a better term, then it knows what she's getting herself into and would prepare for such. That means arm herself, gather people to escort her, and if from Negav, probably hire a wizard or two. It would be difficult for even a giant to just rush at them. I mean it could, she's not really in immediate lethal danger, except maybe the mages, but most of the time they can't safely cast big powerful spells on the fly. But the thing is, humans can cause severe injuries to a predator. Let's say one of them has an assault rifle, that won't kill a giant, except maybe an extremely unlikely lucky shot, which even then I highly doubt, but 5.56 or 7.62 rounds, while not lethal to a giant by any means, is still going to hurt. I may be wrong, but getting shot would be the equivalent of being stung by a bee. Let's say one of them empty its entire magazine at a predator, and let's say it shoots at a rate 600 rounds per minute and that a magazine holds 30 rounds, standard stuff. That would be like being stung by 30 bees in the span of 3 seconds in roughly the same spots. It wouldn't be lethal, but it would be very painful, and since the environment is just as dangerous to giants as it is to humans, predators like nagas can't chance taking all those hits and hope that she'll be fine for the rest of the day. So giant predators can't just "go cowboys" on a group of humans, cause she could get serious injuries.

But with that said, one of things that make giant predators like nagas so dangerous is because they can reason on the same level as humans. They can set up ambushes, they can lay down traps or decoys to help set up their ambush, and scariest of all, they can figure out which member of a group of humans is no danger to her and which ones she has to look out for. They can tell at a glance that the guys with the axe and club are no threat, the guys rocking the assault rifle and bow could be problematic, they can even assume the worst like the bow could be enchanted, and they can tell that the guys wearing robes and carrying staves are the ones she really has to look out for. With that she can devise a plan, like waiting until they set a camp and go to sleep before moving in, or better yet, attack as they are setting camp to take them completely by surprise. It's why I see giant hybrid predators as the typical worst case scenario when traveling through Felarya.

With that out of the way, let's assume Relina successfully ambushes a group of armed humans and traps them before announcing her challenge. The thing is that most, if not all humans, won't follow the rules of the fight. A lot of them are willing to fight dirty, but most important, the companions of the one being dueled will do everything in their power to help their comrade, even if they don't really like her, because losing a guy, even one, is a huge loss. So when I read Asuroth's story, and yeah that's the only exposure I had to Relina dueling someone, I just couldn't fathom that the other humans were just watching when they should have been ganging up on Relina or do anything to help, because while Relina and someone else is fighting, another predator, even if just an animal, could potentially walk in on the scene, at which point everyone is at a serious disadvantage cause they now have to deal with it while dealing with the injuries they probably took before that happened. I'm probably wrong and you probably showed humans that didn't follow any of the "rules" Relina set for the duel, but it's just something I had to get out of my chest.

In conclusion, does it bother me that Relina challenge humans to a duel? Not really, if that's what her character would do, then that's what her character would do. I just think that humans should be portrayed as smart and something even giants shouldn't take as a non-issue without planning. Does that mean there shouldn't be hapless schmucks who are displaced in Felarya by mistake, or dopes that come woefully unprepared and in the wrong mindset? Heck no, it's just that since Felarya is so massively huge, giants are very spread out, and humans who go out into the wild are already rare, such cases should be rarer. Basically, humans, and other humanoids like nekos and elves, who know what they're getting into and prepare as such, should be represented more often.

With that huge rambling out of the way, let's move on to Malika. Truth to be told, I did not know about any experiment on her that make her hormones go crazy, and really, most of my exposure is what I've seen rather than read, so I had a very wrong perception of her. That said, I still don't agree to her having been intimate on Jora, which doesn't matter anymore cause Ravana is starting fresh again. Not because of Malika, I mean her sex drive is supposedly abnormal as you stated, but moreso because I can't see Jora commit. I'm going to give the story the benefit of the doubt and go with the assumption that most of Jora's interactions with nagas were from Crisis, Anna and Vivian, and so it painted her perception of them as very friendly, Anna less so. But with that said, I still can't see her being okay with having sex with Malika. I know she's not my character and I'm just making assumptions, but I can't imagine her not finding the prospect awkward or have a great deal of hesitation. Maybe something different happened, a completely cynical assumption, Malika went in Heat Overdrive as I'm going to refer to and Jora unfortunately happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. But again, it's no use talking about it because Ravana is starting over, and so for the time being, that event didn't happen.

Beyond that, I don't have anything else to say. I'm going to take your word for it that you developed Malika quite a bit and that my perception of her may have been badly painted because a lot of fanarts of her shows only one side of her persona, which bothered me a lot back then. But I have gotten wiser, slightly, and so while it still upsets me, I know there's probably more that meets the eye. That's all I have to say for now.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2013
See, THIS is what i was looking for! THIS I can relate to, and THIS is what feedback should be.

Before I address anything, let me first start off by I have a new level of respect for you - by virtue of the level of feedback and the tone used. If we all went to each other like this, then i think the forums would be amazing :).

To be fair, I can understand where you're coming from - and as i've re-booted Her (so to speak) story wise her's wouldn't be seen for a very long time. All 8 of the Valka who have them share this trait though. ( [link] & [link] ) If you're looking for some imagery, this is Natalie, Relina's mother.

Best I can tell, you dont have any real issues exactly, that dont stem from misunderstandings. Malika could be called a nympho, but as it goes she really stops when people are adamant about no - cept for humans usually.

To address your thoughts about humans, you're right... they do play exceptionally dirty (we all would) in those situations. Part of Malika and Relina's origin story, involved a dual where Malika saved Relina by putting herself between Relina and a rather high powered weapon. Usually when she hunts, Malika is nearby - so ambushes and sneak attacks are pretty much out, because you'd have to be able to steak out a position and completely avoid Malika's senses to be successful. Not that either is impossible, but both together is pretty close.

You are right though, I spose people should start making humans abit more intelligent and cunning- although i'm sure you'll agree perhaps the most repugnant godmoding is when someone makes humans op, lol.

As far as Jora and Malika - I told him i'd like him to arrange their first meeting this time, and whatever develops there will become canon between the 2 of them. I think that's a much better way to approach this :).

Sorry this is out of order :(, but in addressing Relina (or any valka fae of decent strength) Running into one of them isn't like running into a regular fairy, nor is it meant to be. It'd be no different if they encountered a crimson maiden really. When you think about it, there's a difference between encountering different breeds of different species - which more often then not means the diff between life and death ya know?

I also agree, that alot of weaponry would be dangerous to either of these two - varying widely of course on whats efective and super effective.

As for writing fights, and the like. I do agree that the more epic you try to go, the more you limit yourself and it becomes a boring read - but i would thinkt that's a product of the action - not the transforming itself? Perhaps some elaboration is required here.

Anyways, I actually enjoyed reading through this, and you do make several good points. Many that i agree with to some extent or totally. I hope i was cordial enough in replying (you're not gonna get a rage monster from me so we can all chill :) ) I'm curious about that last point though - it definitely merits looking into
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
That last point is the transformation, right? I'm going to assume it is for now. The transforming bit is often associated to action-heavy series where you expect combatants to smash a half-mile wide crater if allowed to, and looking at Natalie's strongest form, she looks like someone who could smash a half-mile wide crater if allowed to. It's most likely a gross generalization, but with the success of series like Dragonball Z and Naruto, that is usually what first pop into mind when we see something like that. If that is an integral part of their species, all I'm going to say is handle it carefully. Not just to avoid creating power levels other people might yell out as overpowered, but also because of unwritten in-universe rules. As I said before, Felarya is hostile to all creatures, and a big fight that cause an explosion you could hear from very far away will most likely attract unwanted attention, and as powerful as Valka Fae may be in this state, I don't think they'd want being caught by surprise by a giant monster bear she inadvertently attracted, or worse, something else takes her prize as she's busy dealing with a giant monster bear (Felarya NEEDS giant monster bears, dammit!).

The deal with Malika being near Relina when she's dueling is something I didn't know. Again, the only instance I've seen Relina duel was in Asuroth's story, which I didn't see Malika near the humans. But on that note, if Malika is good at hiding, the humans would most likely still attempt to help their buddy because chances are they are unaware of Malika's presence, unless she makes herself known, such as hanging straight above them as Relina is challenging them, and has permission to gobble anyone who is a troublemaker. That would most likely help in evening out the playing field and would require a very cleverly crafted plan to get out of that problem unscathed. But that is really an issue I should have brought to Asuroth rather than you.

On last thing, if you're going to redo Malika and Jora being intimate, my one advice is to make it as consensual as possible. You do not want to make it look like one is assaulting the other, because in my experience, that is a no-win scenario. Things like this may happen in Felarya, but whenever someone is trying to address it, a shitstorm is almost always inevitable and nothing good ever come out of it.

Anyway, that is all I have to say at the moment.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2013
It was - you are correct sir!

When I did make the form originally, I had exactly what you said in mind. I will freely admit that Natalie especially is very capable of doing EXACTLY what you mentioned, but there's alot more to it than that. The reason - I gather - That people seem to trust me with with this sort of thing, Is because i respect the setting above all when doing this. We'll use Natalie as an example, because she's got the absolute most destructive potential.

I totally agree with you about how stupid it'd be to have super powered characters running around every where, blowing half mile craters into things. That's why I built into the code, that These fairies in particular will tailor their power to match whomever their fighting - along with the drawback that for 90% of them, using more power makes them more vulnerable to having their powers lost. This allows a smart combatant a chance to exploit drawing the fairy to a higher level of strength. Kinda of a lose as you go type thing?

Some animal just wondering up isn't really an issue for most, and you'd find that most of them would assist people in this situation. They have an -extremely- strong sense of honor.

Where it pertains to Felarya itself - because I've decided that the spire is in and of itself between realms... The Valka Fae have essentially pledged to do 3 things: Kill tonorions (when they would be a threat to other fae), protect the fairy kingdom (It doesn't really need it, but it's a lofty goal and an extra force of fairies to deal with), and to hunt fairy hunters ^_^ (that's their FAVORITE thing to eat). When i start heavilly writing with the Valka fae - most of the tremdous displays of power will occur near the spire - not on Felarya itself. I don't want to see jungle and wild life ruined in some stupid fight ya know?

As for Malika - whenever she's around, she hides literally all around. She's already got everyone surrounded by virtue of her massive body. More times than not though, she makes the humans aware of her presence, and Relina will tell them that Malika is free to gobble up people who choose to not play by the rules.
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I don't exactly follow how if they use more of their power, it can simply vanish, and it can be used against them. Could you please elaborate on that? That aside, I'm getting the idea that they don't go all out to give their opponent a sporting chance and they basically power up when there's no other option given the situation, which wouldn't normally happen if a duel goes as planned. Is that essentially it? I'm out of things to say about Malika, all that's really left is that I'll have to do the proper research.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2013
Oh, forgive the lack of clarity. For all but the most powerful valka fae ( clan chieftains and the head as the leader of the 6 clans as a whole, as well as a couple of the second in commands - no name for them yet) the more powerful they get, the weaker their wings get- to a point where some have accidentally broken their own in some situations. When they get their wings broken, they lose their magic powers as well as any techniques they learned by digestion rather than training. They also become extremely docile.

And yes sir, you are correct about the use of their powers. Duel methods vary from fairy to fairy- some will let the other pick the type of contest. It could be anything from a simple kendo bout to some form of endurance excercise. It's more exciting to try a foreign competition and they generally aren't picky as long as its physical!
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Okay, that clear things up quite a bit. Now I'm actually out of things to say, so if there's anything else I need to ask for, I'll probably do it via notes. Now I'll have to do some homework regarding Malika and Relina so I can get an actual idea of what they're like.
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:iconjirokatsu:
JiroKatsu Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Hm. I see someone got under you skin.
Honestly, something like that would piss me off too.


I for one never saw Malika as a Vivian clone, witch is why I have a great deal of fun making strips with her, I always got a country vibe from her, and I like country chicks.


I can totally see where ya coming from here. This would be like if someone tried telling me that Kai was like copy of Anna cause they both have explosive tempers... It would make no sense, cause they couldn't be any more different.
Malika and Vivian, while they share some similarities, they really are two completely different types of people.

As for Relina... She makes for a great beer opener... But seriously, I don't find anything wrong with a fairy with an alter ego. That would be kinda odd for someone who made a character like Alice to suddenly get all bent out of shape over another characters mental situation. If anyone had a problem with Relina, than they probably don't like Alice either. >x> Jerks.
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:iconshady-knight:
Shady-Knight Featured By Owner Mar 3, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Well, since this deviation is pretty much to get things sorted out, I might as well get this one done as well, I actually do have a problem with Alice. To be more specific, I have a problem with her when she's written as a more serious character. I've seen your comic strips on Eka, and ignoring other issues that had nothing to do with Alice, she just doesn't work in that kind of tone. With how high her power level is, it gave the vibe that anything that's a threat to giants, which is actually a lot of thing, was largely a non-issue for her. It took away the survival aspect of Felarya, which I see as a core theme, right out the window, and I know it's weird for me to say because I also read a lot of stories where they don't touch on how the jungle or wherever the story takes place could end predators if they're not being careful. However, I also saw your 4komas where Alice is goofing off with other characters, a little how Mac is handling Masumi, except a bit more involved, and it worked perfectly. In fact, it came off as especially natural given with her character. That's really my only gripe with Alice. I think she works perfect as a comic relief character with lots of goofball humor like Masumi and, to a lesser extent, Garnet since Emi updates infrequently and she rarely do things with her, but in a plot-heavy story, not so much.
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:iconturboman500:
turboman500 Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2013
Thanks for dropping me a line bro, And yes someone did, but this isn't pointed at them. I used names because I'm hoping they'll get wind and come so we can talk this out. I don't do notes for stuff like this because it ain't fair for someone to be throwing rocks from a bunker- when in reality they probably have a glass house like I do sometimes :)

I'm glad you picked up on that, and honestly I never thought of Kai being like any other nagas... Even Anna. Though that is interesting to consider!

Here's one for you, have you ever seen the silent rage in a woman's eyes when you tell her she's just like another woman? It's plum scary!.
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